turbotom
Junior Member
Joined: June 2011
Posts: 58
|
Post by turbotom on Jan 28, 2020 19:26:05 GMT -5
Hello everyone! I reach out to those who actually worked on these engines and actually have run them.....I am in the search for the electrical schematics so i can connect it and start it.....I got some basic schematics but that was not so clear what goes to where etc.....I even managed to get the SPSCU that controls the T312 and its SPS gearbox.....I have though understood that i might have to abandon that idea(I would need the electrical schematics of the tornado aircraft för that!!) I simply need a electrical schematics of a running engine, how that engine was connected so it could run. Richard S,Thomas Baumgarten(turbotom) how did you guys connect it?? Any help appreciated !! Cheers/stephan Höglund Hi Stephan, please find attached a schematic that should work. If you have removed the oil pump high pressure regulator as I described a while ago in this thread, you may want to remove the connection to terminal D (oil pump depressurizing valve). Otherwise, the schematic is quite straight forward. If the 24V battery is powerful and can supply very high current, it may be a good idea to have the cable to the starter motor a little lossy. It's not unheard of that the little starter coupling shears if the starter torque is too high. The indicators have got to be 24V obviously. To start the engine, press and hold "Start" until approx. 10% RPM is reached. Then switch on "Fuel" and observe the "Start Fuel" indicator. When this switches off, the "Oil Pressure Present" indicator should come on immediately (if connection "D" is used, otherwise it should be on already when the "Start Fuel" shuts off). Now it's the right moment to release the "Start" momentary switch and the engine should accelerate to 102...108%. If the engine fails to produce sufficient oil pressure, it will be shut down autmatically (power to "Main Fuel Valve" routed via "Lube Pressure Switch"). I didn't arrange the schematic on my installation like this since I used an electronic startup sequencer and monitoring unit, but as a "quick and dirty KISS approach", it will be fine. BTW, the fuse should be an automotove type of maybe 20A, it's basically there to prevent bad things to happen if soemthing goes wrong... I've got mighty respect of big batteries -- the more of them connected in series, the more respect Cheers, Thomas
|
|
|
Post by stoffe64 on Jan 29, 2020 2:07:40 GMT -5
Hello and thank you for your reply back to me and help...much appreciated! The pictures Above are the schematics that i have! Cheers/Stephan Höglund
|
|
turbotom
Junior Member
Joined: June 2011
Posts: 58
|
Post by turbotom on Jan 29, 2020 6:00:38 GMT -5
Hi Stephan - I've got some other documents (than the APU manual and the illustrated parts breakdown) on the T312, unfortunately with some parts of very poor quality (probably a scan of a low-res FAX) but as always in this business, we've got to be happy with whatever information we're able to gather... Here's the link: www.turbinemuseum.de/files/T312-Electrics.ZIPMaybe this gives you some further insight into the working principles. The german language file "Funktionsbeschreibung.pdf" resembles more or less the english "Secondary_Power_System_1.pdf", yet the former contains the pictures that the latter is lacking. So you may want to use these two files together. Otherwise, it may be a good idea to install an EGT thermocouple on the APU to make sure it doesn't overheat. Unfortunately, due to the arrangement of a radial transsonic compressor with a two-stage axial turbine, the T312 doesn't idle at such low RPMs and temperatures that we are used to from radial/radial turbines. That's just the result of the operation characteristics of the turbomachinery -- a radial turbine simply better matches a radial compressor over the whole RPM range. This gets irrelevant once the engine approaches design RPM. Hope this additional information is helpful to your endeavour Cheers, Thomas
|
|
|
Post by stoffe64 on Jan 29, 2020 6:50:28 GMT -5
WOW!!Thank you Thomas,that was very interesting to see,especially the SPSCU and its schematics....very complicated though....but it would be fun to connect it,i do have such SPSCU so it is possible maybe one day!? Thank you my friend, you are very helpful!! Cheers/stephan Höglund
|
|
jetric
Veteran Member
Joined: December 2014
Posts: 132
|
Post by jetric on Jan 29, 2020 10:26:17 GMT -5
Hi Tom/Stephan, Tom beat me to the reply, Tom has got all the same info that I have got anyway. Yep that's a totally valid point about the starter motor torque snapping the small link shaft if you do not use long leads to the motor to reduce the power a bit, as I know of a few engines that this has happened to. Tom, whilst you are on the forum I just wondered if you could help me with sourcing a manual for the Russian TS21 apu, as I have just recently acquired one and it would be nice to have some supporting info before I mount it on a test stand and run it (with freepower output locked). You did mention on your web site that you have a copy of the manual in Russian, if I could possibly have a copy of it from you I would happily reimburse you the cost of the CD and postage. Many Thanks, Richard S. Hi Stephan - I've got some other documents (than the APU manual and the illustrated parts breakdown) on the T312, unfortunately with some parts of very poor quality (probably a scan of a low-res FAX) but as always in this business, we've got to be happy with whatever information we're able to gather... Here's the link: www.turbinemuseum.de/files/T312-Electrics.ZIPMaybe this gives you some further insight into the working principles. The german language file "Funktionsbeschreibung.pdf" resembles more or less the english "Secondary_Power_System_1.pdf", yet the former contains the pictures that the latter is lacking. So you may want to use these two files together. Otherwise, it may be a good idea to install an EGT thermocouple on the APU to make sure it doesn't overheat. Unfortunately, due to the arrangement of a radial transsonic compressor with a two-stage axial turbine, the T312 doesn't idle at such low RPMs and temperatures that we are used to from radial/radial turbines. That's just the result of the operation characteristics of the turbomachinery -- a radial turbine simply better matches a radial compressor over the whole RPM range. This gets irrelevant once the engine approaches design RPM. Hope this additional information is helpful to your endeavour Cheers, Thomas
|
|
|
Post by stoffe64 on Jan 29, 2020 15:11:14 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by stoffe64 on Mar 1, 2020 13:10:32 GMT -5
Thank you guys for your help, much appreciated!
|
|
turbotom
Junior Member
Joined: June 2011
Posts: 58
|
Post by turbotom on Mar 9, 2020 20:03:24 GMT -5
... Tom, whilst you are on the forum I just wondered if you could help me with sourcing a manual for the Russian TS21 apu, as I have just recently acquired one and it would be nice to have some supporting info before I mount it on a test stand and run it (with freepower output locked). You did mention on your web site that you have a copy of the manual in Russian, if I could possibly have a copy of it from you I would happily reimburse you the cost of the CD and postage. Many Thanks, Richard S. ... Richard - sorry, somehow your inquiry completely slipped off my radar... didn't mean to ignore you. If you still need the documentation (though what I've got also isn't complete), here's a link to the download: www.turbinemuseum.de/files/TS-21.ZIPAnd that's an archive of several photos of a beautifully sectioned TS-20b which is a close relative to the TS-21: www.turbinemuseum.de/files/TS-20b_cut.zipCheers and all the best, Thomas
|
|
jetric
Veteran Member
Joined: December 2014
Posts: 132
|
Post by jetric on Mar 10, 2020 6:48:27 GMT -5
Hi Thomas, Many thanks for the documentation. If you get stuck with sourcing any manuals drop me a message as I have acquired a few of them over the 25 years of doing this hobby and I might just have what you need. Many Thanks, Richard S. ... Tom, whilst you are on the forum I just wondered if you could help me with sourcing a manual for the Russian TS21 apu, as I have just recently acquired one and it would be nice to have some supporting info before I mount it on a test stand and run it (with freepower output locked). You did mention on your web site that you have a copy of the manual in Russian, if I could possibly have a copy of it from you I would happily reimburse you the cost of the CD and postage. Many Thanks, Richard S. ... Richard - sorry, somehow your inquiry completely slipped off my radar... didn't mean to ignore you. If you still need the documentation (though what I've got also isn't complete), here's a link to the download: www.turbinemuseum.de/files/TS-21.ZIPAnd that's an archive of several photos of a beautifully sectioned TS-20b which is a close relative to the TS-21: www.turbinemuseum.de/files/TS-20b_cut.zipCheers and all the best, Thomas
|
|
|
Post by stoffe64 on Jun 18, 2020 6:19:24 GMT -5
Working with my engine,building engine mounts.....have been looking at jetrics engine and his way of fastening the engine in the stand....my engine has m8 bolt threads.....would this really be sufficiant? Two m8 thread bolts to hold the engine weight and load when it is running?? Dont want to crack the bearing housings!! Cheers/stephan Höglund
|
|
|
Post by stoffe64 on Jun 18, 2020 7:57:40 GMT -5
This Will be the rear engine mount/hanger Cheers/Stephan
|
|
jetric
Veteran Member
Joined: December 2014
Posts: 132
|
Post by jetric on Jun 18, 2020 22:58:30 GMT -5
Hi Stephan, The two M8 bolt mounting pads are used to lift the engine into the airframe these are fine for test running the engine otherwise I wouldn't of used them!!! (A standard M8 bolt will cope with around 1ton of tensile force and a high tensile M8 cap screw bolt will cope with 4ton) If the engine is going to power something then you have to use the 'V' band mounting pad on the engine output end to mount it securely. Richard S. Working with my engine,building engine mounts.....have been looking at jetrics engine and his way of fastening the engine in the stand....my engine has m8 bolt threads.....would this really be sufficiant? Two m8 thread bolts to hold the engine weight and load when it is running?? Dont want to crack the bearing housings!! Cheers/stephan Höglund
|
|
|
Post by stoffe64 on Jun 19, 2020 8:16:38 GMT -5
Thank you Richard for your reply, Did you tighten those bolts securely or they sit a bit loose for expansion?,othervise i will be fine then with my setup because i meant Only to test run my engine now and then when the spirit comes. Cheers/stephan
|
|
|
Post by stoffe64 on Jul 26, 2020 5:00:09 GMT -5
A question to Richard staweley and Thomas Baumgartner... did the radioactive engine bearing housings being introduced with the late version of the T312? Or was it there already with the early version?? Cheers/stephan Höglund
|
|
turbotom
Junior Member
Joined: June 2011
Posts: 58
|
Post by turbotom on Jul 31, 2020 7:35:54 GMT -5
Stephan - As far as I could find out, the thorium contents in the early engine's castings has been even higher than in the later ones. The higher radiation levels that I read on engine S/N 109 (the earliest that I came across) may also be the outcome of the continuing radioactive decay, resulting in more isotopes of other elements, of which the high energy beta radiating elements Actinium 228 and Thallium 208 produce considerable amounts of X- or gamma-rays (Bremsstrahlung).
There are only two components that are made of Mag-Thor which are the compressor bearing housing and the inner gearbox housing (funnel-shaped). All the other structural parts are either made of a magnesium alloy that's free of radioactive elements, (stainless) steel or titanium.
As long as you don't machine the affected components (especially grinding may be dangerous), and you don't keep the parts close to places where you usually spend considerable time, they won't pose much of a danger. Probably the most dangerous situation would be if the Mag-Thor components get incinerated and burn off. In this case, the smoke will contain the radioactive oxides finely distributed and can easily be inhaled.
Take care, Thomas
|
|