theq
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Joined: October 2018
Posts: 21
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Post by theq on Nov 15, 2018 20:25:30 GMT -5
 I have four of these helium tanks lying around. I was thinking of turning them into a ridiculously powerful sugar rocket just for luls. Chop them up weld them together and strap a go pro to it. Nozzle probably would need to be made from pressed bentonite clay (cat litter) with a binding agent like apoxie. Yeah they aren't light compared to PVC. But I'm sure the sheer volume of the fuel I can load will counteract this. I'll use ammonium nitrate (pellet fertilizer) or Potassium Nitrate (stump remover) for my oxidizer and add some finely powdered rust to speed up the reaction. I'm hoping it will be the most powerful (or nearly so) model rocket ever. Could someone that is an expert tell me what letter rating this would be classified as? Oh don't expect this to happen anytime soon. This is a summer project most likely. |
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CH3NO2
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Post by CH3NO2 on Nov 17, 2018 14:08:51 GMT -5
Classification depends on the total impulse of the motor.
The total impulse depends on the propellant specific impulse multiplied by the mass of propellant loaded.
So you need your propellants specific impulse and the mass you expect to use.
Tony
BTW propellant grade Ammonium Nitrate is not easy to come by. If you do manage to purchase enough to build an engine that size, you may need about ~50-75 lbs.
More than enough to put you on a D.H.S. and A.T.F. watch list. Maybe even on a visitation list.
Proceed with caution.
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monty
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Currently being spanked by mother nature.......
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Post by monty on Nov 18, 2018 21:51:17 GMT -5
If you do manage to purchase enough to build an engine that size, you may need about ~50-75 lbs. More than enough to put you on a D.H.S. and A.T.F. watch list. Maybe even on a visitation list. Proceed with caution. One of the guys I used to work with was a rocket fuel specialist. He was working on some hybrid engine stuff, for the goober-mint....and our mutual employer. Needless to say he was also interested in this stuff on his own time in the hobby realm. The guys with guns and badges showed up at his house in the proverbial black tinted SUVs and proceeded to pack up everything he owned including the carpet....
It was a rather unpleasant and expensive experience for him....and he was doing this stuff for "us"....so yes.... Proceed with caution.
The men in black do not have a sense of humor, an understanding nature, or common sense.
BTHW I first learned of sugar/KNO3 propellant while reading a book on rocketry from the local library while in the 6th grade. The book was full of a bunch of calculus I did not understand at the time about nozzles, and such....It was published in the 40's and the pages with the instructions on how to "cook" the mixture were splattered with burn marks! Taking note, I used a hot plate in the back yard to make my propellant......and monitored the temperature very closely! Those were the days. Ingredients from the local pharmacy...days long gone..sadly.
Monty
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Post by racket on Nov 18, 2018 23:30:16 GMT -5
Hi Monty LOL..........as an obnoxious teenager I used Sodium Nitrate and Sulphur from my local hardware store's gardening supply section when making gunpowder for pipe bombs, rockets and muzzle loading cannons , the storekeeper did ask what I was using so much on and I told him I liked growing cabbages ............yes, they were innocent days back in the '60's :-) No "men in black", just the local constabulary when the neighbours complained about the "fireworks". My text with the recipe in it was an old school chemistry book I found at the local tip , Elementary Practical Chemistry , a Laboratory Manual for Use in Organised Science Schools , printed 1919, it still sits in pride of place in my bookshelf some half century latter ............I consider it sent me forth on the path I'm still treading :-) Some of the older Members here will remember Bruce Simpsons "problems" with the New Zealand Govt en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Simpson_(blogger) when he started advertising he could produce "budget" cruise missiles using his pulse jets and "off the shelf" electronics. Yep , we need to be careful in the current political environment :-( Cheers John |
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Post by Johansson on Nov 19, 2018 0:24:22 GMT -5
I agree with the previous speakers, have fun but stay below the radar.
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CH3NO2
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Joined: March 2017
Posts: 455
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Post by CH3NO2 on Nov 19, 2018 8:46:50 GMT -5
If you do manage to purchase enough to build an engine that size, you may need about ~50-75 lbs. More than enough to put you on a D.H.S. and A.T.F. watch list. Maybe even on a visitation list. Proceed with caution. One of the guys I used to work with was a rocket fuel specialist. He was working on some hybrid engine stuff, for the goober-mint....and our mutual employer. Needless to say he was also interested in this stuff on his own time in the hobby realm. The guys with guns and badges showed up at his house in the proverbial black tinted SUVs and proceeded to pack up everything he owned including the carpet....
It was a rather unpleasant and expensive experience for him....and he was doing this stuff for "us"....so yes.... Proceed with caution.
The men in black do not have a sense of humor, an understanding nature, or common sense.
BTHW I first learned of sugar/KNO3 propellant while reading a book on rocketry from the local library while in the 6th grade. The book was full of a bunch of calculus I did not understand at the time about nozzles, and such....It was published in the 40's and the pages with the instructions on how to "cook" the mixture were splattered with burn marks! Taking note, I used a hot plate in the back yard to make my propellant......and monitored the temperature very closely! Those were the days. Ingredients from the local pharmacy...days long gone..sadly.
Monty
Wow. What the heck was your friend doing? A visitation by MIB is one thing, a search and seizure takes a court order which requires an entirely elevated level of reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. He either had to purchase a whole lot of it or done something in addition to cross a threshold. |
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CH3NO2
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Post by CH3NO2 on Nov 19, 2018 8:48:22 GMT -5
I like the book pages with splattered burn marks. That's a story within a story. HA!  |
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monty
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Currently being spanked by mother nature.......
Joined: September 2018
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Post by monty on Nov 19, 2018 9:12:37 GMT -5
Wow. What the heck was your friend doing? A visitation by MIB is one thing, a search and seizure takes a court order which requires an entirely elevated level of reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. He either had to purchase a whole lot of it or done something in addition to cross a threshold. Nope...nothing particularly dangerous. A maintenance worker hired by his landlord saw his ingredients and freaked out with visions of finding a hotbed of terrorists. MIB show up. Ignorant junior G man goes ape....
The guy had to hire a lawyer, no charges but he did have to pay a lot of money to dispose of his ex-property....now labeled "hazardous waste" Including the carpet....and he spent time in jail, being treated in a not so friendly manner.
He just didn't show up for work one day and we were all like what happened to so and so??? Something like a week later he showed up looking like hell, with a very wild tale.
Of course no apology was forthcoming from MIB. IIRC the whole thing cost him about $30K in 1997 dollars. And this was BEFORE the crazy world we now live in.....
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monty
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Currently being spanked by mother nature.......
Joined: September 2018
Posts: 400
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Post by monty on Nov 19, 2018 9:16:09 GMT -5
I like the book pages with splattered burn marks. That's a story within a story. HA! Yeah...I always pictured someone stirring the concoction on a gas cook top while reading the open book when excitement ensued!
I don't remember exact numbers but the glass transition temp and the auto-ignition temp were not very far apart!  |
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CH3NO2
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Post by CH3NO2 on Nov 19, 2018 12:28:20 GMT -5
OK now it makes sense. 97 was just after Tim McVeigh incident. The call in by the maintenance worker is how the warrant was justified. It's too bad for your co-worker. That had to have been a terribly bad experience.
Well, at least since the time the splatter burnt rocket book was printed, much safer versions of candy propellant have been developed. Sugars like inositol or erythritol with much lower melting points that form even lower melting point eutectics with nitrates can be used. Also having much better pouring characteristics makes addition of burn rate catalysts and higher energy fuels like aluminum feasible.
Previously metal pipes were the regular procedure, where as now PVC pipe can be safely used with good results.
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CH3NO2
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Post by CH3NO2 on Nov 19, 2018 12:37:01 GMT -5
TheQ, If you want to build solid rocket motors, I suggest going the Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propllant (APCP) route. 1) It's Safer. 2) It'much higher performance. 3) APCP is NOT classified as an explosive by BATF. There are many other regulations you will need to follow concerning APCP but at least its legal liability is lower than any "solid propellant" bearing ammonium nitrate. Research APCP before purchasing anything. Start here: www.rocketmotorparts.com/Ask questions. They can help. Tony |
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theq
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Joined: October 2018
Posts: 21
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Post by theq on Nov 25, 2018 18:42:20 GMT -5
Thing is Amonium Perchlorate isn't easy to get is it? I thought that stuff was like NASA/USAF grade solid motor material. I'm not really that sure on fuel at this moment. I was hoping this wouldn't be a very expensive project (>$500) But thanks for the advice on the MIB.
Anyways, I've heard my own share stories of US marshals showing up after ppl make threats about certain somebody's while drunk on the phone. But they have nothing to worry about with me. All I want is to do something fun and ridiculous without people getting hurt. Safety is my priority if I cant ensure that the project would be safe I probably won't do it after all. I also just added a fifth tank to my collection. I wouldn't think they'd come after me unless I started building "Stability assisted" (I mean computers and electronic-gyros) model rockets. And that's what you have to call them. Can't have "guided" ones. Big no no. That's one step away from a legitimate weapon. That's why I'd go for the traditional puff charge deployed chute recovery if I can. I'd only have the Go pro for proof.
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afioretti
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Joined: April 2019
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Post by afioretti on Apr 9, 2019 12:44:12 GMT -5
I am new to this board but not new to rockery. Ammonium Perchlorate is not controlled and never has been. If you formulate your own APCP, there is a limit to how much you can store without a LEUP but the amount is reasonable. The ruling making APCP a controlled explosive was overturned many years ago because it can not be detonated.
You can purchase any amount of AP from Firefox-fx.com. They are located in Pocatello, Idaho and been in business for decades. If you choose to purchase you will need to send a copy of your drivers license.
Andy
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CH3NO2
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Post by CH3NO2 on Apr 10, 2019 13:19:51 GMT -5
Hi Andy, Welcome to the JATO forum Andy! Its good to see another rocket guy here.  Note: It can be detonated when in a fine powder form. AP is classified as a division 1.1 explosive if powdered into particles smaller than 15 microns in diameter. www.atf.gov/file/97696/downloadOther than sub 15 micron, its safe and legal. Tony |
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