Anyone used GE locomotive turbo impellor/turbine?

[wyldon]

Hello all,

This is my first post on this forum, but I've been reading through many posts and lurking around. I thought it would be time to finally get involved with the community. My question is this, has anyone used GE/ALCO locomotive turbo parts for a DIY turbine engine build? Ill drop some pictures below of what they look like so you can understand my thought process. There is an image below of one of these turbos on a pallet to show its true scale. I've got a few suppliers that sell the parts, not sure on prices yet because I have yet to ask. Anyways, enough rambling. Let me know your thoughts. 

The turbo:



The compressor/turbine

[pitciblackscotland]

Sept 15, 2022 6:20:13 GMT -5 wyldon said:

Hello all,

This is my first post on this forum, but I've been reading through many posts and lurking around. I thought it would be time to finally get involved with the community. My question is this, has anyone used GE/ALCO locomotive turbo parts for a DIY turbine engine build? Ill drop some pictures below of what they look like so you can understand my thought process. There is an image below of one of these turbos on a pallet to show its true scale. I've got a few suppliers that sell the parts, not sure on prices yet because I have yet to ask. Anyways, enough rambling. Let me know your thoughts. 

The turbo:



The compressor/turbine

I don't think that will work mate, very heavy mass to spin up for a turbine engine. I have a complete assembly locomotive turbo parts the turbine wheel is very heavy,but the comp wheel is light weight for it's size could match it up with a TPE turbine wheel John W will give you more advice on this.

[finiteparts]

I am not aware of any individual using such a large turbocharger, but I do know that GE built a pulse detonation driven demonstrator using a locomotive turbochrger as it's core. (see: 2.bp.blogspot.com/-eJdVHnbinZg/VYYB53Y20XI/AAAAAAAA_Yc/TnvREdB3PIU/s1600/GEhybridPDC.png )

Fundamentally, there is no reason why it wouldn't work. But, there are some glaring negatives to the idea.

First is the cost. Cost to buy the components, cost to build the large combustor, cost to lube it, cost to fuel it, etc., etc.

Second, the turbine is usually fed from the aft end towards the compressor, which is a bit unnatural for a thrust engine, but not a show stopper, just weird.

Third, if you have any hick-ups during the R&D phase of it's life, it is going to be expensive.

Fourth, when you move further away from the experience base, you get to blaze the trail more by yourself. Others will be able to offer suggestions and such, but they will lean more towards the opinion side as opposed to the fact side, since there is little to no experience there.

Finally, I am not sure what the turbine inlet temperature capabilities of those turbines are. Large diesels usually do a pretty good job at extracting energy in the expansion stroke, so that the EGT into the turbine is "relatively" low as compared to a gas turbine. So you might run into what I have run into on some of the larger turbos that I have, in that I can't run them very hard because of the limit on the turbine inlet temperature.

At some point, the cost exceeds what the cost of buying a used aircraft turbine engine is and that money is much better spent.

But, I would love to see someone do this, if they are willing to go down that path knowing all the potential pitfalls.

- Chris

[wyldon]

Sept 15, 2022 7:07:26 GMT -5 pitciblackscotland said:

Sept 15, 2022 6:20:13 GMT -5 wyldon said:

Hello all,

This is my first post on this forum, but I've been reading through many posts and lurking around. I thought it would be time to finally get involved with the community. My question is this, has anyone used GE/ALCO locomotive turbo parts for a DIY turbine engine build? Ill drop some pictures below of what they look like so you can understand my thought process. There is an image below of one of these turbos on a pallet to show its true scale. I've got a few suppliers that sell the parts, not sure on prices yet because I have yet to ask. Anyways, enough rambling. Let me know your thoughts. 

The turbo:



The compressor/turbine

I don't think that will work mate, very heavy mass to spin up for a turbine engine. I have a complete assembly locomotive turbo parts the turbine wheel is very heavy,but the comp wheel is light weight for it's size could match it up with a TPE turbine wheel John W will give you more advice on this.

I suppose that would make sense, they are quite heavy from what I've seen as well. The average seems to be about 27 LBS for the compressor.

[wyldon]

Sept 15, 2022 10:15:38 GMT -5 finiteparts said:

I am not aware of any individual using such a large turbocharger, but I do know that GE built a pulse detonation driven demonstrator using a locomotive turbochrger as it's core. (see: 2.bp.blogspot.com/-eJdVHnbinZg/VYYB53Y20XI/AAAAAAAA_Yc/TnvREdB3PIU/s1600/GEhybridPDC.png )

Fundamentally, there is no reason why it wouldn't work. But, there are some glaring negatives to the idea.

First is the cost. Cost to buy the components, cost to build the large combustor, cost to lube it, cost to fuel it, etc., etc.

Second, the turbine is usually fed from the aft end towards the compressor, which is a bit unnatural for a thrust engine, but not a show stopper, just weird.

Third, if you have any hick-ups during the R&D phase of it's life, it is going to be expensive.

Fourth, when you move further away from the experience base, you get to blaze the trail more by yourself. Others will be able to offer suggestions and such, but they will lean more towards the opinion side as opposed to the fact side, since there is little to no experience there.

Finally, I am not sure what the turbine inlet temperature capabilities of those turbines are. Large diesels usually do a pretty good job at extracting energy in the expansion stroke, so that the EGT into the turbine is "relatively" low as compared to a gas turbine. So you might run into what I have run into on some of the larger turbos that I have, in that I can't run them very hard because of the limit on the turbine inlet temperature.

At some point, the cost exceeds what the cost of buying a used aircraft turbine engine is and that money is much better spent.

But, I would love to see someone do this, if they are willing to go down that path knowing all the potential pitfalls.

- Chris

I'm sure it would be expensive, especially for developing such a big unit. Also, I thought it would be worth mentioning that if I move forward with throwing something together with these parts, I would custom machine a center shaft that would make the compressor and turbine a bit further apart, as I need room for the flame tube which would be quite large. At least I think I would need to, but I'm a bit new to this. This turbine would not be for an aircraft, but instead powering a generator for a little experiment of mine.

[finiteparts]

I figured you knew the costs, but thought it worth mentioning.

I am curious how you are approaching this design. Are you suggesting to just use the rotor and machine the housings and such? Or are you just going to extend the bearing housing?

Machining a shaft will be doable, but I would suggest getting it precision ground instead. Something that big and long will be relatively challenging to get concentric and straight with a few tenths.

If you lengthen the shaft, you will have to take charge of the rotor dynamics, which can be challenging, especially when you are lengthening the span between the compressor and turbine, i.e., reducing the natural frequency of the rotor. If you are planning to use floating journal bearings, it will take some work to determine the proper bearing stiffness and damping so that the rotor doesn't go into a self-excited whirl instability. Even if you can get ahold of the original bearings, you may have moved the systems stable operating range away from where you want to operate it. I have some fundamental rotordynamics software that I can use to get you directional suggestions, not absolute numbers...but estimating the bearing stiffnesses and damping may be challenging for the design tools I have. But I will happily help you if I can.

Also, I actually have a brand new turbine wheel for a GE turbo of some sort. I bought it on fleaBay thinking it was a very small turbine...it looked small in the picture....but when it got here, it was much bigger than I thought. Maybe 18 or 20 inches in diameter. I can dig around and see if I can find it. I don't have a matching NGV set, so using it would still be a challenge. I would think you can find a used one somewhere at a scrapyard or the like. GE Rail had a plant in Erie, PA...might be worth poking around at a scrapyard up there.

Good luck,

Chris

[racket]

Yep , max turb temp is generally in the 500C range because of the wheel/blade material only being stainless steel , perfectly OK for a loco turbo but this severely restricts potential power output :-(

The turb wheel would be OK for a freepower unit as both RPM and temps will be lower .

I fear you'll end up doing a lot of work for minimal return .

You mention using it for a "generator" , the fuel burn rate will make it very inefficient .

How much generator power are you looking at producing ??

Cheers
John

[turboron]

Wyldon, I think the turbine could be used as a DIY Power Turbine per John's suggestion. It would give the community an option to the Allison/Rolls-Royce turbines wheels and nozzles which are in limited supply. Plese share the sources with the community.

Thanks, Ron

[wyldon]

Sept 15, 2022 17:41:54 GMT -5 finiteparts said:

I figured you knew the costs, but thought it worth mentioning.

I am curious how you are approaching this design. Are you suggesting to just use the rotor and machine the housings and such? Or are you just going to extend the bearing housing?

Machining a shaft will be doable, but I would suggest getting it precision ground instead. Something that big and long will be relatively challenging to get concentric and straight with a few tenths.

If you lengthen the shaft, you will have to take charge of the rotor dynamics, which can be challenging, especially when you are lengthening the span between the compressor and turbine, i.e., reducing the natural frequency of the rotor. If you are planning to use floating journal bearings, it will take some work to determine the proper bearing stiffness and damping so that the rotor doesn't go into a self-excited whirl instability. Even if you can get ahold of the original bearings, you may have moved the systems stable operating range away from where you want to operate it. I have some fundamental rotordynamics software that I can use to get you directional suggestions, not absolute numbers...but estimating the bearing stiffnesses and damping may be challenging for the design tools I have. But I will happily help you if I can.

Also, I actually have a brand new turbine wheel for a GE turbo of some sort. I bought it on fleaBay thinking it was a very small turbine...it looked small in the picture....but when it got here, it was much bigger than I thought. Maybe 18 or 20 inches in diameter. I can dig around and see if I can find it. I don't have a matching NGV set, so using it would still be a challenge. I would think you can find a used one somewhere at a scrapyard or the like. GE Rail had a plant in Erie, PA...might be worth poking around at a scrapyard up there.

Good luck,

Chris

This is great information, thank you Chris! I was only planning on just using the rotor and the turbine wheel. The housings and pretty much everything else would be made by myself. As for bearings, the plan (untested and I'm no expert in this sort of thing) was having the shaft connecting the compressor and turbine run through 2 ceramic ball bearings from Boca. That rotordynamics stuff sounds complicated and slightly intimidating. 

[wyldon]

Sept 15, 2022 18:50:35 GMT -5 racket said:

Yep , max turb temp is generally in the 500C range because of the wheel/blade material only being stainless steel , perfectly OK for a loco turbo but this severely restricts potential power output :-(

The turb wheel would be OK for a freepower unit as both RPM and temps will be lower .

I fear you'll end up doing a lot of work for minimal return .

You mention using it for a "generator" , the fuel burn rate will make it very inefficient .

How much generator power are you looking at producing ??

Cheers
John

As far as wheel material, I saw a few guys offering to make them out of some other stuff, like titanium or other alloys. What are some metals you think would be appropriate?

[racket]

HI

Inco 713 like auto turbo turbines , but cost would be prohibitive

But what power output are you looking at ??

Cheers
John

[wyldon]

Sept 17, 2022 1:29:00 GMT -5 racket said:

HI

Inco 713 like auto turbo turbines , but cost would be prohibitive

But what power output are you looking at ??

Cheers
John

I don't have an exact number, its more like build this and see what I can get out of it. What about titanium?

[turboron]

All, another potential souce for a power turbine rotor and nozzle is the World War II B17 turbocharger. Appoximately 60,000 were built during the war. We used them for steam turbines at one of the companies where I worked. I ooked for a source on the internet without success. Does anyone know of a source?

Thanks, Ron

[wyldon]

Sept 18, 2022 8:14:23 GMT -5 turboron said:

All, another potential souce for a power turbine rotor and nozzle is the World War II B17 turbocharger. Appoximately 60,000 were built during the war. We used them for steam turbines at one of the companies where I worked. I ooked for a source on the internet without success. Does anyone know of a source?

Thanks, Ron

Those look pretty cool, I'm sure if one would come up for sale it would be somewhere like eBay. Even then, I'd hate to tear apart a piece of history for parts... But that's just me

[pitciblackscotland]

There are a couple of T30s turbos for sale i have one there are a bit like a GT60 only bigger in size and weight.