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Post by Johansson on Sept 19, 2014 15:12:36 GMT -5
Hi Anders, I know the shaft you made is just a test, but if the Viper is like the Nimbus the section around the spline behind the face flange is under oil when the engine is running, so will probably need a housing, bearing and seal etc to keep this separate from the outside world. Cheers Ian... Hi Ian, That is interesting, I will check it out once I get the manual from the seller. He has a 400 page manual for the engine but he seems very reluctant to actually dig it out and send it to me. I´ll send him an SMS every other day until he gets tired of me and sends it.  I actually found a video of a 522 on youtube, a bit strange since I´ve been searching a lot but never found it before. In the video he seems to use a single TOT probe, this makes me wonder if the temp wires are only routed to a gauge and not into some max temp regulator box or whatnot. Anyone who want to shed some light on this for me? What is actually needed to start and run this engine? Do I need a supply pump for the fuel or does it suck its own fuel from the tank? Which pins in the connectors goes to the rev counter? What needs to be plugged in terms of bleed tubes etc that is only in use with the engine mounted in an airplane? Oh yes, I know that all this will be clear to me when I get the manual but I want to know now! Cheers! /Anders |
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viper
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Joined: August 2010
Posts: 10
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Post by viper on Sept 19, 2014 18:55:50 GMT -5
I use an old stainless car LPG cylinder for the fuel tank, pressurised with engine bleed air with a regulator to a few psi. I have TIG welded AN fittings to the tank.
On the engine there is fuel bleed points on the filter and HP pump to initially remove air from the fuel system
You could also use a pump/motor, would need a 400GPH pump.
You could also put the tank high up and just gravity feed.
The tach generator has 3 pins which go to a 3 pin percent rpm gauge. just connect it, if the gauge turns backwards then reverse 2 of the pins.
Don't know which bleed tubes you are referring to.
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viper
Member
Joined: August 2010
Posts: 10
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Post by viper on Sept 19, 2014 19:03:52 GMT -5
There are normally 5 thermocouples in the end of the jet pipe, all wired together to a single point which goes to the EGT gauge.
In the video it looks like the end of the jet pipe where the probes and jet trimmers normally are has been sliced off.
You could use a single thermocouple, a diesel pyrometer gauge and probe set would work.
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gidge348
Senior Member
Joined: September 2010
Posts: 426 
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Post by gidge348 on Sept 19, 2014 21:03:13 GMT -5
Yep, Similar to the Nimbus, it has 4 "K" type all in parallel so the usual cheap electronics store thermo gauge should work fine.
Cheers Ian..
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Post by ernie wrenn on Sept 20, 2014 9:53:45 GMT -5
A hydraulic starter will work fine. They are available and it it easy to couple them together. The starter I am running on the Viper series is a 24 vdc starter/generator I purchased from Surplus Center www.surpluscenter.com look at item # 10-1839 commerical winch motor 8000 rpm @ 12vdc 16,000 @ 24 vdc . I have used 10,000 and 12,000 pound winch motors on several turbines without any problems. I also install voltage regulator on them to charge the batteries and run aux power. Solid connection to the main shaft with a coupler. Ernie |
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Post by ernie wrenn on Sept 20, 2014 9:56:04 GMT -5
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Post by Johansson on Sept 20, 2014 16:07:33 GMT -5
A hydraulic starter will work fine. They are available and it it easy to couple them together. The starter I am running on the Viper series is a 24 vdc starter/generator I purchased from Surplus Center www.surpluscenter.com look at item # 10-1839 commerical winch motor 8000 rpm @ 12vdc 16,000 @ 24 vdc . I have used 10,000 and 12,000 pound winch motors on several turbines without any problems. I also install voltage regulator on them to charge the batteries and run aux power. Solid connection to the main shaft with a coupler. Ernie Feels like I just hit jackpot here, a cheap starter that won´t need a one way bearing leaves lots of cash left for the batteries. I´ve sent them an email to find out the shipping cost. Thanks Ernie! What size of the battery bank do you have? Cheers! /Anders |
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Post by Johansson on Sept 21, 2014 14:59:38 GMT -5
I use an old stainless car LPG cylinder for the fuel tank, pressurised with engine bleed air with a regulator to a few psi. I have TIG welded AN fittings to the tank. On the engine there is fuel bleed points on the filter and HP pump to initially remove air from the fuel system You could also use a pump/motor, would need a 400GPH pump. You could also put the tank high up and just gravity feed. The tach generator has 3 pins which go to a 3 pin percent rpm gauge. just connect it, if the gauge turns backwards then reverse 2 of the pins. Don't know which bleed tubes you are referring to. There are normally 5 thermocouples in the end of the jet pipe, all wired together to a single point which goes to the EGT gauge. In the video it looks like the end of the jet pipe where the probes and jet trimmers normally are has been sliced off. You could use a single thermocouple, a diesel pyrometer gauge and probe set would work. Ok, so all I need to do is to get the fuel flowing up to the pump. That´s good news, the guy I bought it from had been told that it needed a 5 bar supply pressure up to the main pump... Good info about the tachometer and the TOT gauge, I am starting to get a clear picture of what I need for this engine now. Another thing I am curious about are the two throttle levers, I assume one is for the spray nozzles and the other is for the main vaporisor nozzles. Do the spray nozzles flow enough to keep the engine at idle and any further throttling is done with the vapor nozzles? Are the spray nozzles used all the time the engine is running or only during startup? I am asking because I have seen videos of a rather wide range of fuel flow during starting, some videos have burning fuel pouring out the jet pipe and in others you can barely see a flame during spoolup. I am guessing that the firethrower engines have their vapor nozzles flowing fuel before the combustor is hot enough, perhaps in combination with a weak starter/batteries. What is the correct starting procedure for a Viper? Start the spark, 12V spoolup, spray nozzle solenoid on (by the way, are the spray nozzle fuel flow ramped up or can they be set to full flow at the instant the solenoid is opened without risking a hot start?), 24V spoolup and the engine is running or what? Cheers! /Anders |
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Post by ernie wrenn on Sept 21, 2014 15:49:17 GMT -5
Spray nozzles are for start only. If left on the engine will NOT come up to full throttle. The are used when the aircraft is on a "Hot" flight line. The fuel supply MUST be above the pump for gravity feed. If not you will need a "turbo transfer pump". I tried a low tank and regular pump, It will not run. This took me 2 weeks to figure out. With a low tank, the transfer pump must run full time. The engine pump will NOT lift fuel. Watch youtube #2 for switching and run up on my S-10 w/201-522 www.youtube.com/watch?v=ficiT0cincswww.youtube.com/watch?v=-EiIYGlyFJg |
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Post by ernie wrenn on Sept 21, 2014 16:03:32 GMT -5
Temp probes are for Gauge only. Total mechanical FMU.
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Post by ernie wrenn on Sept 21, 2014 17:13:25 GMT -5
battery pack is 2 12vdc in series for 24 vdc auto type. They are very easy to starter. I apply the 24vdc all at once, no step needed.
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Post by Johansson on Sept 22, 2014 1:50:51 GMT -5
Very informative videos Ernie, did you make them whem you had the S10 up for sale?
How many Ah were the batteries holding? Would two 100Ah 12V batteries with >800CCA be enough do you think?
Ok, so you don´t use any ramping or soft start on the engine? No problems with the winch motor taking damage from it?
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viper
Member
Joined: August 2010
Posts: 10
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Post by viper on Sept 22, 2014 5:00:35 GMT -5
. Another thing I am curious about are the two throttle levers, I assume one is for the spray nozzles and the other is for the main vaporisor nozzles. Do the spray nozzles flow enough to keep the engine at idle and any further throttling is done with the vapor nozzles? Are the spray nozzles used all the time the engine is running or only during startup? I am asking because I have seen videos of a rather wide range of fuel flow during starting, some videos have burning fuel pouring out the jet pipe and in others you can barely see a flame during spoolup. I am guessing that the firethrower engines have their vapor nozzles flowing fuel before the combustor is hot enough, perhaps in combination with a weak starter/batteries. What is the correct starting procedure for a Viper? Start the spark, 12V spoolup, spray nozzle solenoid on (by the way, are the spray nozzle fuel flow ramped up or can they be set to full flow at the instant the solenoid is opened without risking a hot start?), 24V spoolup and the engine is running or what? Cheers! /Anders I think the Two levers you are referring to are the throttle and HP fuel pump cock. The HP cock when opened allows fuel to flow through to the engine via the BFCU. Its also what you use to shut down the engine. The start fuel is controlled by the start fuel solenoid, sometimes called fuel primer solenoid. You need to have a switch to supply 24VDC to this solenoid during engine starting. The BFCU takes care of fuel flow to the main burners, you don't need to worry about that. The start sequence is: 0 seconds - Throttle lever to idle position, HP cock on, low pressure fuel pump on (or whatever you use for lP fuel), starter motor on. 2 seconds - Start fuel solenoid on, ignition igniters on. 25 seconds - starter motor, start fuel solenoid, igniters all off. To shut down engine, move throttle lever to idle position and turn off HP cock lever. You can have the starter on soft start for about 3 to 7 seconds then full start for the remainder of the time if you prefer. |
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Post by Johansson on Sept 22, 2014 8:46:24 GMT -5
Thanks, the fog is clearing more and more. By the way, do I need both ignition modules or can I use a single one? It feels like the double spark plugs are some kind of redundance in case one ignition module fails. |
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Post by ernie wrenn on Sept 22, 2014 10:56:27 GMT -5
Duals are redundant but sure make starting easy..
Battery pack is 2 1100 CCA.. but 800 will work with no problems. The engine spins very easy.
Yes I made the videos for selling the S-10, which is still for sale..
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